Bagenalscastlenewry.com, N. Ireland minister admits castle not there. NEWRYABBEY

Most links found & content on this web site connect to first edition historical manuscripts & or publication's showing precise statement's as written. The photo's are all copy right of the author, they should not be used with out permission. All are proof of the real historically recorded annals' of Newryabbey in Co Down N. Ireland. (Unless you know different) All of these book's, map's, leaflets, guides, history book's, religious writing, & copy's of almost 200 year's of Newry & Mourne's memoirs & town guide,s along with associated English edited Newry town guides, leaflets & booklets & abbey supplements are the author's own Library. Important references from medieval Cistercian's records along with period English State papers are included in order to show nothing but the truth in all eventualities. The author was born with in the immediate Newryabbey enclosure & spent part his youth attending the Abbey school & so know's the whole abbey area like the back of his hand. In short he climbed the walls of the Abbey & went where he wasnt supposed to, naturally he discovered some scary truth's while walking through the undercrofts.. He see's the recent errecting of an alleged lost English Castle that uses an abbey chapel building as being in the manner of the preverbal English Cuckoo. He finds this distortion of Newry's history as an affront to his ancient Irish culture, & those other culture's that were nursed with in this foundation of St Patrick.

Ireland is an old country, built on the earliest bones of time, the whole country is a vast archaeological site with millions of recorded & unrecorded features that could be anything from an interesting stone discovered on a hill, to a forgotten ringfort on a hill opposite.. Resonant with local attachment and deep continuities, it has the worlds most ancient historic landscapes that gives our uniqueIrish identity. Newry played a very important role in the ancient times and is recorded by the bards as doing so through out the ages. Newry is a very special place but during the past 50 years,an intensive wrecking and bulldozing of our ancient towns embankments & medieval building that are irreplaceable & the land marks used by our ancestors are all but extinct & while you may be under the illusion that Newry began only 850 years ago you are in for a big supprise. The Newryabbey was once called the college of Newry, the last time this term was used was in 1456 when Infact the Abbey went under a serious rebuilding scheme & like many others In Ireland at this period was refurbished, many of the building survived after the reformation and indeed some still survive today. Newry & Mourne say's theres none?? The worst period of destruction for the Abbey was during the Corrys dynasty, when it is believed that this once very famous Abbey was brought to the edge of extinction,(load of rubbish) by thier English love for such places. But you cant allways believe what you read, especially when it was written to decieve and cover up the likes of the story behind the 33 mutilated body's found. Many of the Abbey building were pulled down,but many were not & this abbey chapelis proof of the pudding.

There is no doubt 's that the buildings of the Cistercian Abbey of Newry were still surviving at the time of Sir Nicholas Bagenal's grant of Newry, the evidence of this is historical and well written about and it is shown below.

Documents survive for 1540-1, a survey of crown lands in Ireland,, being an inquisition into the lands held by the College of Newry were taken after its surrender in 1549.?? How do they work that out,they are seen writting about lands in 1540, and they didnt steal them untill 1549 ? mad stuff.Probably called planning for the future,lol. Any way

This particular 1540-1549 inquisition document, provides us with the supposed valuable information on the settlement in existence at Newry at this time. I for one after this lot refuse to believe one word of them. No matter at the time of the inquisition (some ) the buildings of the original Cistercian abbey were seen to be still standing with out any doubts, the common name of the grouping was " the College". This consisted of a 'Church, its steeple, a cemetery, a chapter- house, a dormitory and hall, two orchards and one garden, containing one acre,all within the precincts of the "college'. Adjoining the claustral buildings were seventy-two messuages and cottages."

Sir Nicholas' had a patent of 1552, this provides the extent of the lands acquired by himself in this same year. This patent not only granted him the lands of the Abbey of Newry and priory at Carlingford, but also granted him the royal manors of Carlingford and Greencastle along with the Lordship of Moume. These latter estates were were obviously taken into his hands just after he was granted the Abbey 1549-50. Also included were lands centred on the townland of Grange in north Armagh which had also belonged to the Abbey of Newry in the medieval period. All of the estates he recieved were to be held by knight's service, meaning that he was no more than a military tenant of the king, (he had his own plans however to change all this!!)

At this period the dwelling place of the Abbot was a tower-house, this being common place through out Ireland, these towers were built as a retreat or defence primiraly for the leading Abbot or Holy man. In many places in Ireland today the towers are known as Bishops Towers, for they became retreats for many a Bishop in the following centuries
( but this is another story!!). Approx 118 of the original Christian Towers of Ireland still exist in various states of repair. You can see here the Origin Of The Towers

Several years ago at the site of the Abbey or as its more commonly called today Mc Cann's Bakery, the substantial remains of a building similar to that depicted on the 1575 map of the town was unearthed.

This is not new news to the town, many small council guides and many local books have related this fact for over 100 years, and they all quite proudly anounce that the Abbey remains are in Mc Canns.

Many history books refer to the same ruins, however they are best refered to in the memorials! these I believe from a book written by Basset and also explained in the Harris Ancient and Present State Of Down 1734.

This Harris snipit of information that by the way is discounted by those that are currently carrying on the survey of this site, I was assured he was not a historian by a leading figure concerned yet many historians knew Harris to be a learned historian.

Yet the Basset book which was a commercial money maker for Bassets for years is seen to be almost a bible on the subject. strange?

It has been suggested that the remains of the tower (amongst other things) thick walls!! found at the bakery is that off perhaps!! a "new " tower, !!perhaps!! built by Bagenal. The fact alone that this is a question and not a statement, should lead everyone to wonder do they know anything about the building or building's as such.

The memorials refering to this tower' blowing up and the thick walls actually refer to the Abbey and not the Castle as Newry and Mourne put it in their wee Bagenal book !!!

On reading the memorials used to build up most of Newry and Mournes back up on this project, one will fing the word Abbey has been omitted and the word Castle put in its place.

Common sense prevailling with what is stated historically & that no one (historian) in Ireland or England has ever mentioned a Bagenal Castle situated In Newry Abbey grounds, these ruins that are there today are undisputedly part of the claustral buildings of the Newry medieval abbey.

It is historical fact that Nicholas Bagenal the first, 1545, submitted a request to England. to build a Castle & In fact to wall the Newries town like Derry.

Along with this request he submitted an appeal for a loan so that he could proceed with the task.    All of his requests were blatantly refused.   He wasnt the flavour of the month In England.

Needless to say planning offices at all dates through out history were no different in Bagenals time. Many Citys have many discarded unique floor plans like those supposedly found recently In London. It is a fact these documents were known about a long long time ago and were rubbished a long time before I happened along.   These supposed Castle plans which were discussed by the Abbey school way back in 1935 are infact monastic plans for a building that was built 400 years before bagenal came to Newry. The school in 1935 came to the same conclusion that I came to, the Bagenal map was drawn up by a monk In basically what is seen to be in the fashion of a childish hand, hence th experts opinion In Dublin (link above Knox!! ).   The plan that was rediscovered "apparently " for the first time & naturally by Newrys museum experts,(dip sticks!! anti Irish would be more to the point, given that the same people called me anti English, and as said the map was infact discovered by Newryabbey pupils in 1935, this is borne out by the publication at this date in the Abbey publication Oriel News, which was headed by a teacher called Kennan.
London Castle which was the planning office at the date of Bagenals arrival In Newry, would have a lot of vintage old refused plans lying about it, even today many records are being found in forgotten corners of the massive building.

Give the historical facts about the supposed unique floor Plans which were supposedly used to build this Castle the fabrication goes beyond belief.     Newry and Mourne along with heritage state, no other plans in the world let alone Ireland have been found like them except for one out In Carrick,again this is another monastic site and or building dateing to the 12th cent.   Newry Mourne produced 2 sets of drawing, a top floor and a bottom floor, while this is what would be expected, not only are they borrowed from 2 different buildings, the top floor which has been measured by a real expert for us, would never sit on the bottom floor because the walls of the top floor are quite a bit wider. As well as this the bottom floor plan shoots Newry and Mourne in the foot because it features the undercrofts of Newry abbeys Cistercian ground floor. How silly are these people do they think we are all as cooked as they are. A MONASTIC vaulted roof is seen below the floor as clearly as day,In the bagenal bookelt this feature is admited to, mad but real yet its supposed to be a building built brand new in or around some date from 1545 to 1720 ?Only a couple of hundred years between dates so if Newry & Mourne have an inkling of proving such an event took place they are giving them selve plenty space for moving the dates in, and this is what they have done recently.

There is not one historical document that states Bagenal ever built one Castle In Newry ever let alone all those that the likes of. It is assumed he built many. My opinion is given the scanty information that is availiable (rumours in wee town guides etc) that he restored a few, and lived in many & built all Castles In Ireland.

With regard to the Infamous map of Newry supposedly found In England only just recently, the Abbey school Oriel magazine 1935 mention's the same funny looking plan map call it what you will, so it was no big recent discovery that has been hidden since the reformation, & if it was then how did the Abbey student's get hold of it in 1925 ? True the map had a supposed new castle on it, but the building Is an identiy kit model of the Cistercian Abbots house and no different to the Abbots house as It stood In 1973 before Newry Mourne knocked It down.

Harris In his ancient and present account of Co Down 1743, this by the way the book that Newry & Mourne quote as reference to the supposed Castle, does not mention Bagenal let alone any Bagenal Castle. Its is note worthy here to remember that this book was written only 20 years after the last of the Bagenals died out, & as yet not one address for any member of this family has been located In Newry, strange stuff when we are led to believe by Newry and Mourne that this family was the back bone of this town. On a study of all records in regard to all building that were erected in the town from the time of Nicholas Bagenal right up to the death of the last Bagenal member in 1720, there isnt one building not even a shed that was endorsed by the name. However if you take a wee trip down the road to "Newcastle" you can find bit's of the same Castle where the Bagenals did get letter's and official recognition as being tennants, I say tennants because this particular building actually belonged to a farmer when Nicholas Bagenal arrived In this area, It was used for houseing 11 cows, much like the abbey of Newry it wasnt in the best of nick. under his belt there Is not one omentions Creeleys Castle (really a large house on the corner of mill street belonging to the Abbey, newry Castle was all but attached to It. Harris also mentioned Needhams Castle but refers to it in a manner that It wasnt really a Castle, it was inso many words just called one, however he added this was the house of the Abbot & it was at the top of Hyde market, and it was an "old building" so given that the Abbots house In 1734 was an old building, & this only a few years after the last of the Bagenal died 1720 this couldnt have been the so called Castle could it. ?? He also mentioned that the Holy house was till lately still standing,(church across the street, the bakery, which I assume It had taken on the guise of another building, because Its still here today. Where did this great Castle dissapear too In Harrisons day, no a whisper . More to the point where did Bagenal live ? (Tell u later) Harris was an outstanding Historian, he was refered to by many in many books and was quoted by the famous Geogahgian 1870, constantly. If Harris omited a Castle it never existed. !!